I'm wondering if an understanding of the bible's teaching about the trinity and the sovereignty of God might be helpful on this one. I agree that the bible usually says that God planned for Jesus to die in our place, and does not blatantly use the exact words "God killed Jesus."
But if Father, Son and Holy Spirit planned the atonement in eternity, if Jesus offered his life willingly and if God is in control of everything, it would seem to me to somewhat neutralise objections to this concept.
Sitting in church this morning, the story of Joseph popped into my head and I was reminded that Joseph blatantly says to his brothers who had sold him as a slave
... do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you ... So then, it was not you who sent me here, but God. Genesis 45 And in Genesis 50 Joseph says: 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
While the bible may not use the ipsissima verba, the concept would seem to be found there. I think this needs to be nuanced in such a way that we understand that God is using the actions of evil men for his own purposes, it was his grand plan,and I think it would be proper to say to the chief priests and scribes and Herod and the others "It was not you who took Christ and crucified him, but God. You intended to kill the prince of glory, but God intended it for good to accomplish the saving of many lives."
Joseph's statement did not absolve his brothers from being responsible for their evil activity and such a statement to those who took Christ and put him to death would also not free them from being held accountable for killing the Son of God.
I appreciate the comments that have been made on this topic concerning exercising the same restraint which the bible uses, but think that if you consider all of the biblical material on the atonement, some pretty strong statements are made there. We should not go beyond Scripture, but I think the analogy with the story of Joseph is a useful one to ponder.
4 comments:
David, thanks for the reference. I was going to say for the link, but that's not there, only in my previous comment, so here it is again.
Your analogy with Joseph and his brothers is helpful. But it is not precise. It would have been quite just for Joseph to blame his brothers, although he freely and graciously chose not to.
But if in fact Joseph had been part of a plot with his brothers to feign his own death so that he could escape to a new life in Egypt, and even if that plot had gone wrong and he had ended up a life-long slave, he would have been unjust to blame his brothers, because he was equally responsible with them.
The situation with God and Jesus was not like what really happened to Joseph, but more like my imagined second scenario. Jesus as a Person in the Trinity was involved from eternity past in the divine decision making process. The Father's will in this matter cannot be separated from that of the Son - to do so is certainly heretical. To claim that "the Father killed the Son" is to ignore the Son's own role, own share in the initiative for what happened. Although the Son's will was tested in Gethsemane, he reiterated that his death was voluntary, that he laid down his life of his own accord, John 10:18. To claim that "the Father killed the Son" is to ignore and reject this role of the Son in his own death. In fact it would be more accurate to say that "the Son killed himself".
Hi Peter.
I find yoru comments here interesting and helpful. I don't think I understood what you were saying before.
I'm not happy with saying "the Son killed himself," though. Are you?
Because I think Jesus laid down his life voluntarily, but that it was nothing like a suicide.
No, I am also not happy with "the Son killed himself," as indeed it was nothing like suicide. My point is that if the Father killed him, then also and to the same extent he killed himself. But neither set of language is biblical or helpful.
You said: "No, I am also not happy with "the Son killed himself,""
Well, how about the other implication, that the Father killed himself, if indeed Jesus is Jehovah as many claim in order to support their doctrine of the Trinity?
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